Summary - Cllr McGregor proposed asking Adur Residents to choose how they are Governed - in a way that could REALLY CHANGE the way we are Governed.
All Labour Councillors Present voted against the proposal to ask the Adur public how they'd like to be Governed.
Verbatim Report of the debate:
This can be heard by following this link and listening to the recording. There's a drop down menu, taking you directly to the right place in the recording - look for "Motion on Notice". Alternatively, you can listen from 1 hour 38 minutes into the recording
Motion on Notice – Adur District Council Meeting 17th
July 2025
‘To conduct a oCmmunity Governance Review of Adur District’
Proposer Cllr Andy McGregor, Conservative
Seconder Cllr Carol Albury, Conservative
Cllr Andy McGregor – “Right, first of all, so long as we get the guidance from
Joanne Lee - I had a quick chat with the Councillor Gardner who very kindly
spoke with me ten minutes before the start of the meeting, and I would like to
make a slight amendment to the motion - only to say the motion at the moment
says “To commence a community governance review of Adur District without delay”.
And I would like to change that ‘To conduct a Community Governance Review of Adur
District’. My seconder has agreed to that. Can we go ahead on that basis?”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) – Chair – “There's no reason why you can't introduce your
own amendments.”
Cllr Andy McGregor (Conservative) – “Thank you. That's what I thought. So, this, as there's
three pages of notes with this, I think you will have all read plenty, so I
won't say too much. This is about democracy and governance of place. In
particular, local people being asked how they would like to be governed. So
this isn't a vote to set up a Town Council in Shoreham. It's a vote to ask
Shoreham or Southwick, or Fishersgate, if they would like a Town Council. And
it's also to ask Lancing and Sompting residents if they would like any changes
to their Parish Councils. A number of people have said that those two should be
merged because it's very obvious that they should.”
“And the guidance that goes with this is 18 years old legislation, and it's
recommended a Community Governance Review is conducted every decade, and
obviously the first one would not be conducted ten years after the enactment of
the Act. So we're two Community Governance Reviews behind already.”
“So here we are. Now is the right time to conduct a Community Governance Review.
We have a massive change just on the horizon, in the way that we are going to
be governed. No longer will Adur be a cosy Council of 65,000 residents. We are
likely to be a unitary authority of 435,000, if Councillor Gardener's
suggestion of two Unitaries goes ahead - and if other people's suggestion of
West Sussex being a Unitary, it will be 870,000. So, really, the 20,000
residents of Shoreham might be a little bit lost in that massive number. And I
think we should ask them if they would like to have any kind of governance of
place. And if we vote against this, local residents will not be asked how they
would like to be governed. And you'll be ignoring, what local residents want,
or even assuming you know what local residents would like.”
“And finally, after the creation of the Unitary Authority, on vesting Day,
which it is the 4th of May 2028, I wonder if the Shoreham residents, if they
weren't asked if they would like a Town Council, - if they would be looking across the river,
saying, ‘I wish we'd been asked’. Thank you.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe – Chair – “Thank you, Councillor McGregor. Now, you proposed
an amendment in there. Uh, and so we'll take the amendment first. So have we
got a written version of it? I beg your pardon, I left out. Do you have a
seconder? Do we have a seconder for that motion? Councillor Albury, you have
the right to speak now, or you can speak during debate? It's up to you. or not
speak at all. It's up to you.”
Councillor Carol Albury (Conservative) – “I will leave it to Councillor
McGregor”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you. So, in terms of, I'm just going
to have to check, because you've proposed your own motion, that's an unusual
situation. So I'm just going to take advice from the Monitoring Officer here, Councillor
McGregor, have you got the wording of your own amendment, please? Thank you.
Just bear with us one moment.”
MEETING BRIEFLY ADJOURNED FOR THE MONITORING OFFICER TO GIVE ADVICE
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) – Chair – “I think we're there. So, on page 36 of what is
the original agenda pack? It says the motion is, ‘to commence a Community Governance Review of Adur District without delay’, and I understand that Councillor
McGregor would like to amend it “to conduct a Community Governance Review of Adur
District”. Is that seconded? Is that what you were saying?”
Cllr Andy McGregor (Conservative) – “Yes, ‘to conduct a Community Governance Review of Adur District”’.
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) – Chair – “So that's what you were saying. Thank
you. Okay, so that is now open for debate, comments. Leader, did you wish to comment?”
Cllr Jeremy Gardner (Labour) – “Sorry, I just wanted to check. Are we we
speaking now on the amendment, rather than the substantive motion?”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) – Chair – “I think we're speaking..."
Joanne Lee – Monitoring Officer - I think as Councillor McGregor has submitted
a motion on notice, and it is his motion on notice, I think and he has spoken
with you, leader, but I think that we can accept Councillor McGregor's motion
on notice as amended. If anyone has any objection to that, please do say, but
otherwise, I think we will be debating Councillor McGregor's amended motion.
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) – Chair – “Yes. Thank you. So, Councillor Sluman”.
Cllr Sharon Sluman (Labour) – “Thank you, Chair. I think for myself, I'd be
more comfortable to consider what resources are available to be able to do
that. I'd be quite concerned about the capacity within the council at the
moment, and whether there are the resources to do that. So I'm not sure that I
would be comfortable to vote, as is, because it's more directive. Sorry, I
can't see the words, to conduct a Community Governance Review. I'm not sure
that's something that I could comfortably commit to without looking at the
impact on the resources and our provision, of course, services.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) – Chair – “Thank you, Councillor Sluman. I've got Councillor
Stainforth and Counsellor Parkin. Council Parkin. Would you like to go first?”
Cllr Parkin (Conservative) (off microphone) – “Ladies first”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) – Chair – “That's a bit to sexist. Councillor Stainforth”
Cllr Debs Stainforth (Labour) – “Yeah, two things from me, really. Firstly, I
understand that to conduct a Community Governance would cost in the region of,
well, around £200,000. And we've already heard how tight the budget is, so I
just don't know where my fellow Councillor thinks we're going to find that kind
of money. Secondly, for me, we're just about to go through local government
reorganisation, and the whole point to my mind is to create efficiency in the
system by having Unitaries, not having duplication, creating a system where
people can just go to the one Council and not have to wonder, is it West Sussex?
Is it Adur? Who does which bit of pavement, as we discussed earlier, and you
know, and all the sort of contracts that complicate things around that. How can
we sell local government reorganisation to people on the basis of efficiencies
and things being more straightforward for them, and then say, actually, and
we're also thinking about, oh, putting another new layer in another new layer
of government, it makes no sense to me. Thank you.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you, Councillor Stainforth. Councillor
Parkin.”
Cllr Neil Parkin (Conservative) – “Ignoring the fact that we've already got
half of the district is already covered, with although there's, under this
thing, they'd be look at, but they've got their Parish Councils. and I'm never
a big fan of town councils, but the thought under the reorganisation that's
coming along that it could be something like West Sussex big, and you know, I
mean, I'm quite happy to wait personally until we know what's going to happen
with the big reorganisation. But if it
isn't something that huge, I'd be really concerned about the people of Southwick,
people of Shoreham, being having known, you know, being represented by, four
councillors, maybe. I don't know what the outcome's going to be. but if it's a
really huge authority, and bearing in mind that there's already parishes in
existence, I mean, Chichester districts got over a hundred, I think…
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “68.
Cllr Neil Parkin (Conservative) – “68?”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Yes”.
Cllr Neil Parkin (Condervative) – “And Mid Sussex has got loads. So, you know,
all these places would all be happily working on who's going to look after the
grass urges and things. Yeah. I mean, I think my own view is. more than happy
to agree with this, but we leave it till we know what we're talking about.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you for your comments. Counsellor
Baine, then Councillor Loader.”
Cllr Robina Baine – “Just a very quick comment. I mean, I agree with Councillor
Stainforth. I think it's extraordinarily confusing to residents to tell them
that things are going to be streamlined and made easier with a unitary and then
try and explain to them. Firstly, why we are adding another layer on top of
that. And then how we explain to them that we feel that is an acceptable use of
money and an acceptable expense. But then to Councillor Parkin’s point, it is
up to us. You use Southwick, interestingly, as an example, you know, how will
Southwick residents know where to go? Because Southwick Councillors will be out
there talking to them as they are every day, explaining to them what and where,
not confusing them by adding another layer. On top and I trust all my co Councillors
and all my colleagues from whichever party you are, that you will be doing
exactly the same in your wards, if your residents don't know who to contact,
that's down to us not being there enough. Thank you.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) – Chair “Thank you, Councillor Baine. Councillor Loader.”
Cllr Joss Loader (Independent) – “Thank you, Chair. I agree with Councillor
Parkin. I am happy to wait, but I am concerned. At the moment, we have 29 Councillors,
and I do agree with Councillor Baine, that we talk to our residents, but if we
have a county wide Unitary, we are not going to have 29 councillors at our
disposal. I mean, at the moment, there are, what, five county councillors
across the whole of Adur, and I am really concerned, as an independent Councillor,
and with a tradition on the beach that goes back 60 years, our residents are
really concerned that they won't have a local voice, and I do think we need to
address that, because with the best we in the world, and I agree with
streamlining, but we don't want to dilute it to the point that people feel
disenfranchised. Thank you.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Shinn.”
Cllr Julian Shinn (Green Party) – “Yes, I also agree with Councillor Parkin,
that this needs to wait. But I think, just to echo what other people are
saying, there is a real tension in local government, reorganisation between
streamlined, larger unitary authorities, which I largely support the concept
of, but at the same time, the need for people to have very local senses of
place and governance and involvement. I do agree with what Councillor Baine
said about, it is partly up to those new representatives to ensure that, and I
just wanted to add I'm particularly interested, and I know the government have
put forward other ideas about local representation. I've seen stuff about
neighbourhood forums or committees. I think that's really interesting, and I
look forward to the stage when that can be fleshed out and how we can
incorporate that level of localism into the wider reorganisation.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you, Councillor Shinn.. I've got
Councillor Gardner, then Councillor Neocleous.then Councillor Watts.”
Councillor Jeremy Gardner (Labour leader) – “Well, remarkably, I agree with,
Councillor Parkin as well. Let's see, and it won't be too long before we start
to get the likely shape of local government reorganisation. And I would also, a
Parish Council, a Town Council, may be a good idea, Town councils do good
things, but we also have to be clear what the role of a Town or a Parish Council
is, and they are not - that they do not have power of over all those things
that a District, let alone a Unitary Council has. So you can have maybe a great
idea to have a Town Council looking after parks and doing lots of really good
work in these towns. But also a Town Council isn't the only show in town.
After, I think it was last week, the English Devolution and Community
Empowerment Bill went to the Commons. I actually got a couple of emails from
people saying, what are you going to do? Because are you going to have a
community panel? That bill says that councils must have properly established
community engagement, and that's something we need to talk about, as well. And
I would say a little missive came from the Ministry of Housing Communities and Local
Government on the 3rd of June. And it said, areas considering new Town or Parish
councils should think carefully about how they might be funded to avoid putting
further pressure on local authority finances and or new burdens on the
taxpayer. The government recognises the value that Town and Parish Councils
offer their communities, but they are independent institutions and are not a
substitute for meaningful community engagement in neighbourhood working by a
local authority. The government wants to think every local authority hard
wiring, local community engagement into their own structures, preferably
through neighbourhood area committees. There was a very interesting workshop with
West Sussex, local government leaders, where we discussed all the really
interesting examples from across the country of where councils are doing really
innovative ways of involving the community, and actually passing decision
making to the community. We also agreed that we didn't really like the idea of
yet more committees, there's something deadening about about a committee. So I
think a review is something to be thought about and something to be thought
about carefully and as appropriate, considered for a forthcoming budget, I
think Councillor Stainforth, to be honest, I think she had an absolute gold
plated review there at £200,000 pounds. I think generally, they come in in
between £50 and £160 (thousand), depending on how well you do it and the size
of the area, I think we should consider it alongside having a real discussion
about what the future of council engagement participation should look like.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you, Council Gardner. Counsel Neocleous.”
Cllr Steve Neocleous (Independent) – “Thank you, Chair. Members who have
attended the briefing sessions would have heard me say many times, I’m broadly
in favour of local government reorganisation. But I do think it's moving at
break neck speed. And I understand that we've been prioritised and I understand
why that's happening, but what it does mean is that we are seriously lacking in
our engagement, we are having to move very quickly and so therefore, residents
and businesses don't really understand the process or really what's going on. I
think the county wide unitary is too big, I think it doesn't represent local
government reorganisation, it represents swallowing up the districts and
boroughs. I'm concerned about community involvement and that was raised today
in the thriving together session that we had here this morning. It was one of
the major points that people want local decision making and they want to be
involved as a community locally. And I think the gap will be too big, whether
we have one or two Unitaries across West Sussex, I think the gap will be too
big, and it won't work. As far as cost seems to me that we've got elections
next May for Adur District Council, that would be a good time to do this if we
were going to do that, which would be helpful, I would think in terms of cost.”
Councillor Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you. Councillor Watts.”
Councillor Julia Watts (Independent) - “Thank you, Chair, very quickly, I just
think it's about choice. I think, we're going to have to give people a choice -
they haven't had a choice about progressing to a Unitary, and I think if we
don't do it, we'll be under pressure from certainly community groups, to at
least look at it. It doesn't mean we end up with a Town Council. It just means
we end up giving people the choice which we should do for democracy. Thank you.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you. Okay, nobody else wishes speak.
Councillor McGregor you have a right of reply.”
Cllr Andy McGregor (Conservative) – “Thank you. The first thing I would like to
say is that I'm not suggesting that we set up Town Councils. What I'm
suggesting is that we ask people what they want. And we are supposed to be
democratically elected. We are supposed to give people what they want, and we
need to go out and ask people what they would like. And if we do this as a Community
Governance Review, we, as the principal authority, can create a Town Council.
We can create a Parish Council. On the flip side of that, we can also abolish a
Parish Council or a Town Council, or merge or change Town or Parish councils as
well. Which brings me onto something that Councillor Stainforth said about the
cost of the Town Council or the Parish Council. And the answer is, if you don't
want that level of local governance, for Shoreham, then you really ought not to
want it for Lancing or Sompting if you object to it that much. And if you
object to it that much, you need a Community Governance Review of the area to
decide whether Lancing and Sompting should have a Parish Council. So whichever
way you look at it, we need to conduct a Community Governance Review - and we
need to ask the public what they want. And, at the moment, what I'm hearing is,
we don't want to ask the public what they want, because it might cost a whole
load of money to ask them. And now we've got Councillor Gardner, who is arguing
in my favour and saying for pocket change, almost, in the Council budget area,
we could conduct one - £50,000, I'm sure you can find that. We're potentially
selling a beach. We're selling a police station. There's going to be $50,000 in
that somewhere. So, I think we shouldn't let the money put us off. In terms of
resources of the council, we haven't got a team of lawyers sitting in a
cupboard somewhere waiting for every 10 years for a Community Governance Review
to be conducted. What happens when most councils conduct one of these is they
get somebody in to do it for them? And I don't know if anyone remembers Maria
Memoli, who was here as the locum monitoring officer, and she told me, ‘I've
done loads of them’. So we just get someone in to do it. I amended the motion
so that I didn't say, well, we must do it straight away. So let's just agree to
do it. When we get a bit more information about the shape of the Unitary Authority.
And, Jeremy and I, if anyone wants to
come along, we'll be debating that tomorrow evening. So, that will be fun, I
think, because I think we're going to disagree, which is what we were hoping to
do, I think. Otherwise, we'll wait. see. Anyway, less about that. So, I really
think that we should be saying, let's have a Community Governance Review, let's
do it when we know a bit more, but let's agree this evening that we're going to
do one. Thank you.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you, Councillor McGregor. What we're
going to be doing is voting on the motion, so to refresh your minds, it says, ‘to
conduct a Community Governance Review of Adur District’.”
Joanne Lee – Monitoring Officer – “Do you mind if I'll just give a little bit
of advice, please. If I might just provide a little bit of advice to members of
Full Council, Councillor McGregor's motion is to conduct a Community Governance
Review of Adur District Council. It doesn't say when, and the usual procedure,
if the authority approves of Community Governance Review, would be to commence
it and finish it within 12 months. So, I just want to make that members aware
of what they will be voting on. Thank you, chair.”
Cllr Adrienne Lowe (Labour) Chair – “Thank you, that's helpful. Right, we're
going to do it by a show of hands, as usual, so those in favour, please show. Thank
you, those against, please show. Thank you. And were there any abstentions? So,
the motion is not carried.”